Major Diminished 7th as Dominant 7 sub

[qweyxc]

Hi,

a while ago I learned about the following:

If I go from the ii chord to the VI chord I can make use of Dominant 7 in between. For example, when moving from Dm7 to Am7 there is the possibility I could add an E7 as secondary Dominant.

In order to substitute for that E7 I can build an major diminished 7 chord from the third or seventh degree of the E7. For example, I would play Ab, B, D, G or D, F, Ab, #C (both major 7 diminished) instead of the regular E7. Another way I learned to use this major diminished chord was to use it in a V - I transition (going back to the root). In this case I would use it like the following: G7 to Cmajordim7 (C, Eb, Gb, B) to Cmaj7.

Furthermore, I learned to use an Augmented 7th chord to substitute for an Dominant 7. For example, instead of the regular E7 I would play play the augmented (E, Ab, C, D).

A different way I learned to move arround the keys (but not as a dominant 7 sub) is to approach the target note with a regular diminished chord. For example, if I move from the Cmaj7 to a minor chord such as the Dm7 I could either use a diminished chord half tone below or above the D (#C, E, G, Bb or Eb, Gb, A, C). But when moving to a major chord (for example G7 to Cmaj7) I would use that diminished chord either below the C (B, D, F, Gb) or on the same key (C, Eb, Gb, A).

However, today I was surfing in the Internet to learn about general dominant 7 substitutes but I couldnt find the one I have learned about. Now I question my knowledge about the use of l diminished and augmented chords in general. Maybe you can help me out and get it straight for me.

[SoftwareGuy]

Could you tell me what intervals are in a major diminish chord?

[qweyxc]

Could you tell me what intervals are in a major diminish chord?

Sure. Its a regular diminished with a major 7.

Thus, in the key of C:
C (minor third), Eb (minor third), Gb (minor third) and B (perfect fourth) in contrast to the regular diminished which consists of minor thirds only (C, Eb, Gb, A).

[SoftwareGuy]

I would guess (I don't have my guitar in front of me) this would sort of function like a B altered dominate (b9), but it has no 7th, so it just suggests a B7b9 chord.

[garybaldy]

Hi,

a while ago I learned about the following:

If I go from the ii chord to the VI chord I can make use of Dominant 7 in between. For example, when moving from Dm7 to Am7 there is the possibility I could add an E7 as secondary Dominant.

In order to substitute for that E7 I can build an major diminished 7 chord from the third or seventh degree of the E7. For example, I would play Gb, B, D, G or D, F, Gb, #C (both major 7 diminished) instead of the regular E7. Another way I learned to use this major diminished chord was to use it in a V - I transition (going back to the root). In this case I would use it like the following: G7 to Cmajordim7 (C, Eb, Gb, B) to Cmaj7.

Furthermore, I learned to use an Augmented 7th chord to substitute for an Dominant 7. For example, instead of the regular E7 I would play play the augmented (E, Gb, Bb, D).

A different way I learned to move arround the keys (but not as a dominant 7 sub) is to approach the target note with a regular diminished chord. For example, if I move from the Cmaj7 to a minor chord such as the Dm7 I could either use a diminished chord half tone below or above the D (#C, E, G, Bb or Eb, Gb, A, C). But when moving to a major chord (for example G7 to Cmaj7) I would use that diminished chord either below the C (B, D, F, Gb) or on the same key (C, Eb, Gb, A).

However, today I was surfing in the Internet to learn about general dominant 7 substitutes but I couldnt find the one I have learned about. Now I question my knowledge about the use of l diminished and augmented chords in general. Maybe you can help me out and get it straight for me.

In your 2nd (or 3rd?!) paragraph I believe your 2 suggested subs for E7 should have a G# note not Gb. The 1st can be considered a Bb13b9 which is a tritone sub for E7. The 2nd is a straight E13b9 ie. the altered E7.

[starjasmine]

In your 2nd paragraph I believe your 2 suggested subs for E7 should have a G# note not Gb. The 1st can be considered a Bb13b9 which is a tritone sub for E7. The 2nd is a straight E13b9 ie. the altered E7.

For example, instead of the regular E7 I would play play the augmented (E, Gb, Bb, D).

There is another typo: E+ is E G# B# or enharmonically E G# C.

E7+ would then be E G# B# D or E G# C D, and yes you can sub this for E7.

You may know that you can always sub any altered dom for a "vanilla" dom as long as it is stylistically appropriate. (ie. maybe not at your country or pop gig!) So that opens up a pretty wide door.

Not to slice it too fine E7b13 has a P5 and an aug5, but E+ has an aug5 only without a P5. In practice, though, inclusion of the P5 or not is a non-issue: it is the least important of the chord tones for determining overall sonority, and if you were to include it in either chord it would most likely sound as a tension tone.

BTW, E+ is G#+ is C+ enharmonically but you prolly already know that.

HTH

SJ

[qweyxc]

Thanks for the help already and I apologize for the typos. Putting all of those notes in letters is getting realy nasty.

Starjasmine, I got you.
But gary, unfortunately I cant follow you exaxtly.

Why the first one (build from D) is considered to be an Bb13b9?
And why is the second one (build from Ab) a E13b9 and not E7#9?
Actually, I see the straight E13b9 in in the first one. Maybe we mean the same thing.

[garybaldy]

Thanks for the help already and I apologize for the typos. Putting all of those notes in letters is getting realy nasty.

Starjasmine, I got you.
But gary, unfortunately I cant follow you exaxtly.

Why the first one (build from D) is considered to be an Bb13b9?
And why is the second one (build from Ab) a E13b9 and not E7#9?
Actually, I see the straight E13b9 in in the first one. Maybe we mean the same thing.

Obviously they are rootless Dominants but they have the critical (dominant defining) notes 3rd and b7.
The one built on the D note is actually the E13b9! D is 7th, f is b9, Ab (G#) is 3rd, C# is 13th.
I would be less prone to use this one before resolving to Amin as the C# suggests Amaj but I have noticed Joe Pass do it so it must be OK!!!
The one built on the Ab note is the Bb13b9. Ab is 7th, B is b9, D is 3rd, G is 13th. So this is a tritone sub. for an Edom7 type chord.

It is very common to alter a diminished 7th chord (the 4 note one eg C Eb Gb A) by moving one of the notes up a tone. I think this is the same as the Major diminished7th.

[TLerch]

The term i use for this is "Diminished Major7" or o(maj7) spelled 1 b3 b5 7
It is commonly used on a biii (1st inversion of io) when the melody is the maj7 of the key.
Used in the way you described above G#dim as a sub for E7 you are basically playing E7#9 instead of E7b9

Tim