Barry Harris's opinion of harmonic minor scale?

[Christian Miller]

Part of the problem here may be the expectation that Barry (and Bird and Bud) should be regularly playing the harmonic minor scale in its unadulterated form. That rarely happens even with the major scale.

One of the main challenges is dealing with the awkward interval between the b6 and 7. Two common solutions were to pivot upwards at that juncture in the scale (3 to b9) or to fill out the same leap with a dominant-related diminished arpeggio:

Attachment 89891

Yes, such as in the bridge of Night in Tunisia. That said there are plenty of examples where Bud and Bird just play the scale straight down through the aug2

actually there are plenty of examples of this from classical music too.

the aug 2 tends to stick out the most when a line starts or finishes on it; but if it’s buried somewhere in the run it doesn’t jarr too much. So it’s common to octave displace as in your examples. See also the first phrase from Bach’s D Minor Two Part Invention which use the same pivot- this also outlines a V7b9 chord, conveniently.

[Christian Miller]

Hmmm, I literally don't understand most of the 'theory' being discussed here. Either people are over analysing or I'm not advanced in my musical journey enough to get the points.

It may be neither of those things - Barry Harris had a very specific way of talking about things. Either you’ve learned it or it’s probably a bit bewildering.

every so often someone asks for the system to be explained and the result always sounds complicated. But it’s not that complicated, just different.

For me its simple, the 7th of the harmonic minor is the 3rd of the 5 chord, so stick it in when the 5 chord is in play to make it all sound nice.

Tbh I've never even thought 'ooh I'm playing the harmonic minor here', I just think 'ooh, heres the 3rd of the 5 chord... Nice!'

Yeah I think that’s a nice way to look at it; sensitive notes of the scale. In minor the b6 is (b9 of V) another one.

On the other hand there’s a very good reason why Barry did the way he did, but there’s not much point trying to explain it unless you’ve learned that way. It’s the same notes you’ve been using, but framed differently.

[Litterick]

Did Barry Harris ever play with Harry Barris?

Asking for a friend.

[Christian Miller]

Did Barry Harris ever play with Harry Barris?

Asking for a friend.

No he didn’t and Goldings totally already did that joke lol

[rintincop]

On the other hand there’s a very good reason why Barry did the way he did, but there’s not much point trying to explain it unless you’ve learned that way. It’s the same notes you’ve been using, but framed differently.

I would love to hear the reasons in your words. I mentioned four reasons earlier, do you concur with these?

"1. Places the chord tones on the beats which enables a melody to reinforce the underlying harmony and sound smoother (more melodically grounded).

2. It also eliminates the harsh augmented second melodic interval found in the seven-tone 5th mode of harmonic minor.

3. Gives improvisers easy access to their often far more familiar dominant scale vocabulary. Rather than the less familiar territory known as the unbalanced "5th mode of harmonic minor."

4. It makes use of a Mixolydian scale a minor third away from the same “family” of interchangeable dominant scales. For example, G7 Bb7 Db7, and E7 are all relatives in bebop and may all interchange or borrow each others Mixolydian scales. Notice that this family of dominants includes the “backdoor” chord, the tritone sub, and Barry's “minor’s five”.

[Christian Miller]

I would love to hear the reasons in your words. I mentioned four reasons earlier, do you concur with these?

"1. Places the chord tones on the beats which enables a melody to reinforce the underlying harmony and sound smoother (more melodically grounded).

2. It also eliminates the harsh augmented second melodic interval found in the seven-tone 5th mode of harmonic minor.

3. Gives improvisers easy access to their often far more familiar dominant scale vocabulary. Rather than the less familiar territory known as the unbalanced "5th mode of harmonic minor."

4. It makes use of a Mixolydian scale a minor third away from the same “family” of interchangeable dominant scales. For example, G7 Bb7 Db7, and E7 are all relatives in bebop and may all interchange or borrow each others Mixolydian scales. Notice that this family of dominants includes the “backdoor” chord, the tritone sub, and Barry's “minor’s five”.

As far as Barry’s teaching goes, I’d rather not guess. The relevant thing I heard Barry directly allude to was number 3. What he actually said IIRC was saying one could get ‘locked into’ the harmonic minor and not have so much to play on it. To me this sounded like number 3.

Maybe the others, I don’t know. I like to hear what others had heard. For example, the minor’s V was new to me for instance, but it makes sense to me that would be a concept in his teaching. Its in the music.

As far as what I think? Harmonic minor is an essential bebop scale, because it is an essential scale in Western music. All you need to do is look at a few bop heads, not even solos. And of course it’s all over Bach etc. And Barry was (rightly in my view although who cares) adamant on the link between the Western canon and bop. Half of the stuff he taught is as relevant to Chopin as it is to Bird…

And so, and PMB points out, to make harmonic minor sound idiomatic in either jazz or bop you need to use in a certain way - but that’s that fella idiom again. It’s understood to be problematic but it still gets used.

The funny thing is as a student of Barry I have spent around zero time practicing harmonic minor. You can totally use it - as I say there’s loads of stuff in DVD II that I’ve quite simply never around got to. But I am always playing the sound even if I’m not thinking it because of that elegant way Barry taught it as an alteration of the dominant scale. It’s just the easiest way to use it now as a sound on secondary dominants and biiio7 chords and so on. Most important Barry’s teaching it that way makes it ‘come out right’ on those chords, emphasising the right notes

Btw, Maybe you did and I’d like to know if you did, but I never personally heard Barry talk about chord tones on the beat - that’s something you have in David Baker etc but I never heard Barry say it.

the way he always said it when I went to class is that ‘the scales come out right’; this has two meanings i can think of, first about making the scale ‘sound good’ but the second is that you end up on a chord tone on the beat, making it easier to chain other ideas on the end. You come out of it right.

[rpjazzguitar]

It seems like what I'd think of as a Bb7b9 scale leading to a G7 scale.

I'm wondering what Barry had to say about making lines (not just running scales) with these tools. If you're making a non-scalar line, then getting the chord tones on the strong beats becomes something different.

[rintincop]

"Btw, Maybe you did and I’d like to know if you did, but I never personally heard Barry talk about chord tones on the beat - that’s something you have in David Baker etc but I never heard Barry say it."

I attended and tape recorded a series of very small but lengthy West Coast workshop sessions with Barry Harris in the early 90's. He stressed the "half step" rules on melodic scale playing. The point of the half step rules is to develop instincts for melodically directing scales in a way as to keep the chord tones on beat. I transcribed the whole thing and its 30 pages long.

He would say " 7, 9, and 11 (odd numbers) you don't need it. 6, 8 and 10 you need it (even numbers)"
That's pretty easy to ingrain in ones subconscious and playing habits through good practice habits. It's a pretty simple binary system.
The "minor's five" follows that balanced chord tones on the beat grammar. The 5th mode of harmonic minor simply does not.

[Tritone72]

Is the “minor's Five” scale mentioned earlier not the same as the 6th-dim scale on the b6 of the dominant? I.e. can you play in a Dmb5 G7b9 an Eb-Maj-6th dim scale? This has the same notes as Bb7 from the 7th down to the third of G.

[rintincop]

Yes. And Bb7 is the V of the Eb sixth diminished scale. Bb7 plus B lays better than an Eb trajectory. And is especially ideal when thought of as its trajectory being down from its 7th , not up from some root.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

[…]

2. It also eliminates the harsh augmented second melodic interval found in the seven-tone 5th mode of harmonic minor.

[…]

I think it depends on the context how harsh you perceive the augmented second. Recently I started to play lines on dominants that go third -> fifth –> minor second –> root of the dominant. Eventually it suddenly dawned on me that I had derived that unconsciously from Dream A Little Dream Of Me where it says “night breezes seem to whisper I love you”. There you have on “whisper I love you” third -> fifth -> third -> minor second –> root. And that song was a hit several times. Every pop fan knows the version by The Mamas & The Papas. I never heard anybody complain about a harsh augmented second.

BTW realizing that i had derived something from a line in a song is for me the proof that knowing as many tunes as possible gives you melodic material — “language” — for improvisation.

[Christian Miller]

I think it depends on the context how harsh you perceive the augmented second. Recently I started to play lines on dominants that go third -> fifth –> minor second –> root of the dominant. Eventually it suddenly dawned on me that I had derived that unconsciously from Dream A Little Dream Of Me where it says “night breezes seem to whisper I love you”. There you have on “whisper I love you” third -> fifth -> third -> minor second –> root. And that song was a hit several times. Every pop fan knows the version by The Mamas & The Papas. I never heard anybody complain about a harsh augmented second.

BTW realizing that i had derived something from a line in a song is for me the proof that knowing as many tunes as possible gives you melodic material — “language” — for improvisation.

even in classical stuff Michael Koch (en blanc et noir) mentions in his videos a few times that it’s possible to get way too hung up on the aug2. That said I melodic minor ascending form (ie jazz minor) descending on V is very Bachian. So these rules we get taught about the minor scale need to be taken with a pinch of salt.

as I’ve probably said above, direction changes on aug2 are definitely less idiomatic in western music; in the middle of scalar lines far more common.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

even in classical stuff Michael Koch (en blanc et noir) mentions in his videos a few times that it’s possible to get way too hung up on the aug2. That said I melodic minor ascending form (ie jazz minor) descending on V is very Bachian. So these rules we get taught about the minor scale need to be taken with a pinch of salt.

as I’ve probably said above, direction changes on aug2 are definitely less idiomatic in western music; in the middle of scalar lines far more common.

I remember dimly the term “unsingable” (was that in school?). Well, thanks to my Mum for letting me listen to Bach and Mozart in my pre-natal state of existence already .

[Christian Miller]

I remember dimly the term “unsingable” (was that in school?). Well, thanks to my Mum for letting me listen to Bach and Mozart in my pre-natal state of existence already .

yeah that’s the sort of thing you see in Fux.

again theorists are best regarded with a cordial disrespect.

[Christian Miller]

Tbf there is value in ‘lies to children’ in education. The thing is people who only learn to that point end up repeating these fibs as if they are the last word.

[ragman1]

I've no idea what his opinion is but this is how he plays minor 2-5's.

[ragman1]

And, just make a complete nuisance of myself, here are some others.

Sonny Stitt:





Chet Baker:






Sonny Rollins:






Charlie Parker:






You can have some of mine too, if you want. Not much difference :-)

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Tbf there is value in ‘lies to children’ in education. The thing is people who only learn to that point end up repeating these fibs as if they are the last word.

The thing is that normal education does not teach you to think yourself. For some time I accompanied children with handicaps to “normal” schools — that is a job that exists in Germany with the goal of their inclusion into “normal” life. For one week I helped out accompanying an epileptic boy to a Montessori school. As he did not have any epileptic seizures during that week he did not really need me more than me being there for him feeling secure. So for me that week was more like a job shadowing (I hope the dictionary showed me the correct word — what I mean is you sit in the back of the class and follow what is happening only as an observer) in Montessori pedagogy. And it was a real eye-opener for me regarding what is wrong in public schools (at least in Germany or more precise Bavaria). I had never seen teenagers that were so autonomous in their thinking and work ethics. And their team work spirit was amazing as well BTW.

[rpjazzguitar]

The chord tones already give you 6 notes (say G7b9b13: G B D F Ab Eb).

You can add in the #9, Bb, without causing a problem.

You probably want to be careful with the 4 because it will make the dominant more ambiguous. Same thing with the natural 7.

You probably want to be careful with the natural 9 and 13, because they'll change the sound of the chord by putting three half steps in a row.

The only note left is the #11. You could use it, or not, depending on what sound you want.

So, it seems to me that the notes that work against this chord, if you are thinking so vertically, are pretty clear. In my analysis I start and end with the 6 chord tones plus the #9 as pretty much consonant. That's a scale's worth of notes (seven of them) and the rest is added on the fly. It has a name, according to the online Scale Finder tool. It's G# diminished lydian. News to me. Unfortunate name for a G7 type scale.

Is there a reason to delve deeper into the theory than this? Stupid question maybe, but I really don't get it.

[Christian Miller]

The chord tones already give you 6 notes (say G7b9b13: G B D F Ab Eb).

You can add in the #9, Bb, without causing a problem.

You probably want to be careful with the 4 because it will make the dominant more ambiguous. Same thing with the natural 7.

You probably want to be careful with the natural 9 and 13, because they'll change the sound of the chord by putting three half steps in a row.

The only note left is the #11. You could use it, or not, depending on what sound you want.

So, it seems to me that the notes that work against this chord, if you are thinking so vertically, are pretty clear. In my analysis I start and end with the 6 chord tones plus the #9 as pretty much consonant. That's a scale's worth of notes (seven of them) and the rest is added on the fly. It has a name, according to the online Scale Finder tool. It's G# diminished lydian. News to me. Unfortunate name for a G7 type scale.

Is there a reason to delve deeper into the theory than this? Stupid question maybe, but I really don't get it.

Seems to me you are looking for reasons not to give it a try.

[rpjazzguitar]

Seems to me you are looking for reasons not to give it a try.

I was hoping for a better reason than that to spend valuable time with it.

[Christian Miller]

I was hoping for a better reason than that to spend valuable time with it.

it will help you play cool bebop lines?