2-b2-1 chord progression question

[tss79772]

Hey guys, I’m sorry if this is a newbie question but I’ve been practicing the common tritone sub of a 2-5-1 which goes:

Dmin7–Db7#11–CMaj7

and

D half dim—Db7 b9–Cmin7

My question is it typical for the bII7 to be altered? And does it usually have a #11 for major 2-5-1 and b9 for minors? Like are the alterations specific for diatonic reasons? Can it be a regular Db7 unaltered?

hope that makes sense…

[P4guitar]

My question is it typical for the bII7 to be altered?

Yes.

"And does it usually have a #11 for major 2-5-1 and b9 for minors?"

Typically

"Like are the alterations specific for diatonic reasons?"

Yes, they are subs for the G7 in your example.

"Can it be a regular Db7 unaltered?"

Yes, the Db7 is part of the Db#11 or Db7b9. What's important are your note choices.

[Christian Miller]

Other than flatting the 5 not much point altering a bII. It just becomes a V7#11

The rule with V7 is the more chromatic notes the greater the jazz

[tss79772]

Great. That makes sense. Thanks guys

[Marinero]

Hey guys, I’m sorry if this is a newbie question but I’ve been practicing the common tritone sub of a 2-5-1 which goes:

Dmin7–Db7#11–CMaj7

and

D half dim—Db7 b9–Cmin7

My question is it typical for the bII7 to be altered? And does it usually have a #11 for major 2-5-1 and b9 for minors? Like are the alterations specific for diatonic reasons? Can it be a regular Db7 unaltered?

hope that makes sense…

Hi, t,
You received excellent theoretic responses from Christian and P4. However, in addition to this, there is something else to consider: you are playing Jazz, which is a very personal musical genre, and knowledge of "Jazz Theory" is only a descriptive model for elements of music and, in no way, etched in stone. If you use YOUR ears as you write and play, you will find that many "chords" your ears like are inversions, shell/drop voicings, or sounds that have no real name in relation to the key signature or the written chord progression of the song. However, without these, you cannot put a personal stamp on your music. Secondly, my biggest criticism of most musicians today ,which is directly related to formulaic music, is that they lack a musical personality. And, I believe that "playing by the rules" creates boring predictable music. Another reason is that paid performance opportunities, so necessary for growth, do not exist to any great extent across our country with few exceptions for a very elite group. This will be the status quo for the foreseeable future and why Jazz is dying. Ensemble playing requires playing with other musicians in diverse settings and getting paid for your services . . . playing in your basement with your wife and kids as an audience does not replicate this necessary, important experience for growth and achieving quantifiable progress as a musician. And, all this started with a question about Music Theory??? As they say in French . . .Oy Vey!
Marinero

[frankhond]

Barry Greene had a nice rule of thumb, that extension notes of flat five subs become altered while altered notes become regular extensions. Or something like that.

[tss79772]

Hi, t,
You received excellent theoretic responses from Christian and P4. However, in addition to this, there is something else to consider: you are playing Jazz, which is a very personal musical genre, and knowledge of "Jazz Theory" is only a descriptive model for elements of music and, in no way, etched in stone. If you use YOUR ears as you write and play, you will find that many "chords" your ears like are inversions, shell/drop voicings, or sounds that have no real name in relation to the key signature or the written chord progression of the song. However, without these, you cannot put a personal stamp on your music. Secondly, my biggest criticism of most musicians today ,which is directly related to formulaic music, is that they lack a musical personality. And, I believe that "playing by the rules" creates boring predictable music. Another reason is that paid performance opportunities, so necessary for growth, do not exist to any great extent across our country with few exceptions for a very elite group. This will be the status quo for the foreseeable future and why Jazz is dying. Ensemble playing requires playing with other musicians in diverse settings and getting paid for your services . . . playing in your basement with your wife and kids as an audience does not replicate this necessary, important experience for growth and achieving quantifiable progress as a musician. And, all this started with a question about Music Theory??? As they say in French . . .Oy Vey!
Marinero

that makes sense. Thanks Marinero

[tss79772]

"And does it usually have a #11 for major 2-5-1 and b9 for minors?"

Typically


but why does that work?

[pingu]

Barry Greene had a nice rule of thumb, that extension notes of flat five subs become altered while altered notes become regular extensions. Or something like that.

Yes !
eg ....

Db9 subbing for G7

Db is the b5 of G7
F is the b7
Ab is the b9
Cb (B) is the 3rd
Eb the ninth is the b13

so the UNaltered Db dominant 9th chord
becomes a VERY altered G7 type chord

so the straighter you play over the
Db7 to more ‘out’ you will be

weird and cool huh ?

[ragman1]

"And does it usually have a #11 for major 2-5-1 and b9 for minors?"

Typically


but why does that work?

It doesn't. Well, not really.

I think you've got confused between the tritone sub and the minor ii-V.

The usual minor ii-V (in Cm) is Dm7b5 - G7b9 - Cm7. The tritone sub would be Dm7b5 - Db7#11 - Cm7.

But you're asking (I think) if you can play Dm7b5 - Db7b9 - Cm7. You're combining the two ideas together.

You wouldn't see that in many books but the answer is, generally, if it sounds okay to you then use it.

I've tried it myself, it's not too bad :-)

So, to sum up, for the V chord in a C minor ii-V-i use G7b9 or #9, G7alt (G7#5b9 or #9), G13b9, or Db7#11. Using the Db7b9 or #9 is strictly optional and a matter of taste.

[rpjazzguitar]

Yes !
eg ....

Db9 subbing for G7

Db is the b5 of G7
F is the b7
Ab is the b9
Cb (B) is the 3rd
Eb the ninth is the b13

so the UNaltered Db dominant 9th chord
becomes a VERY altered G7 type chord

so the straighter you play over the
Db7 to more ‘out’ you will be

weird and cool huh ?

Profound, I think.

When something catches my ear enough that I sit down and figure it out, often it's a simple arpeggio or scalar line. That is, a completely conventional line. BUT, it's not over the chord you'd think.

So, it might be a G7 arp. BUT, that arp is played over Db7, or something else besides G7.

I believe that a lot of great outside playing is actually completely inside, but over a different set of changes.

[ragman1]

Personally, I think we're far too bound by labels. Musically, they're useful for structure and organisation and have their place. On the other hand what we're really discussing is sounds, isn't it?

Changing the bass changes the name. If, for instance, we use a straight G7 - GxFBDx - and put a Db bass on it we get...

Db7b9! The chord we're technically not supposed to use.

So my sympathies are with the OP. I see the point of his thread :-)

[ragman1]

I believe that a lot of great outside playing is actually completely inside, but over a different set of changes.

There might be a book in that, rp. Play Happy Birthday over Wayne Shorter tunes and sound amazing!

I'm joking, of course, not being cynical. But there is probably the germ of an idea there, if it hasn't already been done. Which it probably has.

[rpjazzguitar]

There might be a book in that, rp. Play Happy Birthday over Wayne Shorter tunes and sound amazing!

I'm joking, of course, not being cynical. But there is probably the germ of an idea there, if it hasn't already been done. Which it probably has.

My thought is that the reason an outside line works is because it's a strong line, that would be easily accepted over the conventional harmony for that line. The reason it's "outside" is because the same line is played over different harmony.

Side slipping is a simple example. You play a boring line over Cmaj. Then you transpose it to Db and play it over the same Cmaj. If you get the tension and resolution timed adequately it can sound great. Partly because it's a completely conventional line.

[Christian Miller]

The more notes are outside the key the more opportunity there is for resolution into the key