Semantics of chromatic versus diatonic approach notes

[Sachelis]

(I am a bass player and this question is regarding approach notes in walking bass lines.)

I have read numerous definitions of chromatic and diatonic approach notes, but a question remains: can an approach note be both chromatic and diatonic?

Most instructors/posts/definitions that I've seen imply that an approach note is either chromatic or diatonic, but what about using the approach note B when approaching a C in the key of C? In that case the B is both within the key's scale (diatonic) and a semitone above or below the target note (chromatic).

I realize this a question of semantics, but I am curious how others use these terms.

Thanks!

[Jimmy blue note]

If your approach is from a scale tone, even if it's a half step away, it's a scale wise diatonic approach (like approaching the IV from below) but if there needs to be an alteration so the note is NOT from within the scale, it's a chromatic approach.

[Jimmy blue note]

I've never seen the term 'diatonic approach note'.

Actually I came from a background where they were referred to as appogiaturas, cambiatas, diatonic approach notes, chromatic approach tones, turn-also known as a melodic enclosure-diatonic and chromatic variety (approach from above and below), diatonic passing note if you're talking a narrow leap approach, chromatic approach if you're including a note outside of the scale. A tone can be approached from below or above, by half or whole but the ear and the coincidence to the parent scale determines the amount of "edge" or chromatic alteration your ear perceives, hence the distinction. The terms also change whether your target note is accented or unaccented within the measure. I won't get into that here though.
There are lots of different names for the sounds so it's a matter of semantics but yeah, in my circles, chromatic and diatonic are valid distinctions.
I'm sure in other factions, these terms aren't used.
That's the terminology I used when I worked with people who came from an Ellington based tradition, they're terms I first learned from Archie Shepp and theorists from that tradition.
When I was at Berklee, they didn't teach these terms.
Take it as you will.

[Jimmy blue note]

Maybe more than you asked for, but here is an overall look at jazz melodic embellishment, you'll find both diatonic and chromatic applications with them.
Four types of embellishments based on beat and approach...because you asked
A. Weak beat ornaments.
B. Strong or weak beat ornament.
C. Other ornamental devices.
D. Combinations of devices from the above three categories, by way of the enrichment and development of a single melodic motive.
A. WEAK BEAT ORNAMENTS
Passing tone a chromatic tone between two adjacent scale tones (Abbreviation: P.T.) (Note that in traditional usage, half or whole-step scale notes which, in a melody, pass between the tones of a triad or chord are sometimes referred to as passing tones. For the purpose of this article, however, these will be called scale tones. Only half-step tones occurring between adjacent scale notes will be called passing tones in this article.)
Anticipation tone an anticipation tone between two adjacent scale tones. (Abbrev: A.T.)
Échappe;e a tone occurring between two adjacent scale tones, the motion to the ornamenting tone being contrary to the motion between the scale tones. (Abbrev: E.)
Cambiata a tone occurring between two adjacent scale tones, the motion to the ornamenting tone being the same as the motion between the scale tones. (Abbrev: C.)
Neighbor tone (upper or lower) a half or whole-step tone occurring between two of the same tones. (Abbrev: N.T.)
B. Strong or Weak Beat Ornament
Jazz appoggiatura a leaping tone (an interval larger than a 3rd) which then moves a major or minor 2nd in the opposite direction. (Note that a jazz appoggiatura is a melodic embellishment that does not take into consideration the harmonic or rhythmic implications of the traditional appoggiatura. (Abbrev: J.A.)
C. Other Ornamental Devices
Grace note an ornamental tone whose time value is not counted in the rhythm (Abbrev: G.N.)
Repeated tone (Abbrev: R.T.)
Tremolo the rapid alternation of two tones. (Abbrev: trem.)
Scale tones tones found in any scale other than the chromatic scale. (Chromatic scale tones would be heard as passing tones.) (Abbrev. S.T.)
Chord tones tones outlining any chord, including altered chords. (Abbrev: C.T.)
Free tone an ornamental tone having no relationship to any chord being sounded. (Abbrev: F.T.)
D. Combinations of the Above Ornamental Devices

[Christian Miller]

(I am a bass player and this question is regarding approach notes in walking bass lines.)

I have read numerous definitions of chromatic and diatonic approach notes, but a question remains: can an approach note be both chromatic and diatonic?

Most instructors/posts/definitions that I've seen imply that an approach note is either chromatic or diatonic, but what about using the approach note B when approaching a C in the key of C? In that case the B is both within the key's scale (diatonic) and a semitone above or below the target note (chromatic).

I realize this a question of semantics, but I am curious how others use these terms.

Thanks!

I think ‘Jimmy’s definition is theoretically correct, it’s not how I tend to use it in practical terms when teaching improvisation.

Ok so in my mind it applies to the definition of the interval as chromatic - such as a semitone or tone (half step/step), minor third of major third etc - or diatonic such as step, third etc.

If I say chromatic lower neighbour below a major triad this will mean a semitone (half step)

the semitone below the root is obviously in the diatonic major scale, while the ones below the 3 and the 5 are not in the diatonic major scale.

At least that’s how I use it, but not sure how I came to this usage. Chromatic in this sense means ‘don’t worry about the key’; diatonic means ‘think about the key.’

The basic formula for the last few centuries is ‘chromatic lower neighbour, diatonic upper neighbour’ but there are more complex instances.

If there are other more standard usages I would defer to those. I would be interested to know how someone would teach the kind of enclosure formula above succinctly though.

[Christian Miller]

Maybe more than you asked for, but here is an overall look at jazz melodic embellishment, you'll find both diatonic and chromatic applications with them.
Four types of embellishments based on beat and approach...because you asked
A. Weak beat ornaments.
B. Strong or weak beat ornament.
C. Other ornamental devices.
D. Combinations of devices from the above three categories, by way of the enrichment and development of a single melodic motive.
A. WEAK BEAT ORNAMENTS
Passing tone a chromatic tone between two adjacent scale tones (Abbreviation: P.T.) (Note that in traditional usage, half or whole-step scale notes which, in a melody, pass between the tones of a triad or chord are sometimes referred to as passing tones. For the purpose of this article, however, these will be called scale tones. Only half-step tones occurring between adjacent scale notes will be called passing tones in this article.)
Anticipation tone an anticipation tone between two adjacent scale tones. (Abbrev: A.T.)
Échappe;e a tone occurring between two adjacent scale tones, the motion to the ornamenting tone being contrary to the motion between the scale tones. (Abbrev: E.)
Cambiata a tone occurring between two adjacent scale tones, the motion to the ornamenting tone being the same as the motion between the scale tones. (Abbrev: C.)
Neighbor tone (upper or lower) a half or whole-step tone occurring between two of the same tones. (Abbrev: N.T.)
B. Strong or Weak Beat Ornament
Jazz appoggiatura a leaping tone (an interval larger than a 3rd) which then moves a major or minor 2nd in the opposite direction. (Note that a jazz appoggiatura is a melodic embellishment that does not take into consideration the harmonic or rhythmic implications of the traditional appoggiatura. (Abbrev: J.A.)
C. Other Ornamental Devices
Grace note an ornamental tone whose time value is not counted in the rhythm (Abbrev: G.N.)
Repeated tone (Abbrev: R.T.)
Tremolo the rapid alternation of two tones. (Abbrev: trem.)
Scale tones tones found in any scale other than the chromatic scale. (Chromatic scale tones would be heard as passing tones.) (Abbrev. S.T.)
Chord tones tones outlining any chord, including altered chords. (Abbrev: C.T.)
Free tone an ornamental tone having no relationship to any chord being sounded. (Abbrev: F.T.)
D. Combinations of the Above Ornamental Devices

Yeah thanks for pointing out the difference- the fact that Berklee has a separate definition of appogiatura is a bit annoying if you are interested in both jazz and classical harmony. I don’t know why they did this.

Maybe a mistake that got codified? A bit like ‘tremolo arm’? Anyway you are always going to run into differences like this in jazz edu. I’ve heard a few different usages of ‘guide tone’ for example. Tbh Berklee terminology is very much worth knowing because it’s pretty much the standard even though it’s not the terminology I would use (for instance I prefer dominant scale to Mixolydian but many students prefer that I use the latter.)

I use ‘leaning note’ for the classical appog

Also isn’t the Berklee tremolo what we might also call a trill?

[Jimmy blue note]

Also isn’t the Berklee tremolo what we might also call a trill?

Those terms I posted are non Berklee terminology but nomenclature developed largely from the Western Classical academic tradition, also adopted by Ellingtonian lineage.
Tremelo and trill, yeah many different terms especially if you're in the classical guitar repertoire.
Lots of potatoes and pototoes in talking about music.

Wasn't a trill some kind of symbiant being from the Star Trek universe?

[Reg]

Yea... moving a little forward. Typically when playing jazz.... that note, however you want to label melodically becomes a chord. Which I could go on with musical organization... but most just don't ever get there or care.

[Christian Miller]

Those terms I posted are non Berklee terminology but nomenclature developed largely from the Western Classical academic tradition, also adopted by Ellingtonian lineage.

Ah OK - I think Hal Galper also used some of those in 'Forward Motion' IIRC which made me think of Berklee as I thought I recalled him saying that's where they were from.

Mike Longo had a similar break down though as I remember.

Yeah, mostly the terms are the same as classical, just some funny ones here and there.

Anyone who wants to learn about using this stuff could do worse than look at some Mozart.

Tremelo and trill, yeah many different terms especially if you're in the classical guitar repertoire.
Lots of potatoes and pototoes in talking about music.

Well I don't know, I thought a tremolo and trill as understand them to be were fairly well defined in mainstream terminology, but I'm always discovering people call the same things different things, especially over the pond. It's a miracle we ever manage to communicate at all haha.

Wasn't a trill some kind of symbiant being from the Star Trek universe?

I'm sure I don't know what you're talking about :-) (I'm a philistine when it comes to DS9, I know it's meant to be the best one)

I learned trills doing (bad) classical guitar and singing Bach and stuff. I don't think they get used much in jazz TBH.

[mjo]

The basic formula for the last few centuries is ‘chromatic lower neighbour, diatonic upper neighbour’ but there are more complex instances.

Now you're making me think...
As it happens, I was working on enclosures at the same time I worked on altered ideas, (over a single chord or short segment). What I found in the altered ideas were enclosures. I decided to give up enclosures and approach it differently.

Now, I am NOT the guy that's listened to / loved jazz since I was a kid. I expect people who have would have a better ear / intuition for the music than I. It's possible they could find easier use for enclosures, which seem a bit random / arbitrary too me ... ?
... It's also possible that approaching a problem from multiple angles helps understanding. ......it's happened before

-..thinking...
Mike

[mjo]

Yea... moving a little forward. Typically when playing jazz.... that note, however you want to label melodically becomes a chord. Which I could go on with musical organization... but most just don't ever get there or care.

I'd like to take a minute to encourage you Reg, to talk all you want about organization. I happen to like it, even though I don't understand it all, it comes in pieces ... I'm likely one who'll never get there, but I do care -LOL
...BTW, you say - that note - becomes a chord - .. that's a whole subject for me, right now

-cheers,
Mike

[Sachelis]

... Chromatic in this sense means ‘don’t worry about the key’; diatonic means ‘think about the key.’ ...

Thanks, Christian. As a novice student, I like that sentence. It is how I think about the differences when I'm actually playing. The more theoretical answers are interesting reads, but for quick communications with others, I love the do-or-don't-worry-about-the-key approach <pun intended>.