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Lately i have been focused on melodic minor and thought i would offer some uses i have found and ask for your opinions on the sound.
play melodic minor starting on the I of the key over a V#5 chord
Play melodic minor starting from the #V of the key on a Valt chord
Play melodic minor starting on the iv of they key while on a iim7b5Last edited by DonovanT; 10-25-2022 at 10:01 AM.
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10-24-2022 07:28 PM
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I’m familiar with your second usage on an altered dominant chord. I am guessing that you mean play MM 1/2 step up from the V chord?
Here is another usage:
On a non-resolving (static) dominant chord play MM a fifth up. Not sure how to convey that using your parlance.
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Yeah, I wish I could understand the comments so far. It's always good on any subject to give examples.
1. Play C melodic minor over the tonic chord (C min) in C minor: C D Eb F G A B C. That's pretty obvious, eh?
2. The altered scale: play Ab melodic minor over the V chord (G7) in C major or C minor: Ab Bb BNat Db Eb F G. (I can't write Cb when Bnat makes more sense.)
3. The Lydian dominant scale: play the fourth mode of D melodic minor over G7, especially when it don't resolve to something like a C chord: G A B C# D E F G.
4. The Locrian Nat2 scale: play the sixth mode of D melodic minor over Bm7b5: B C# D E F G A B. Rather like point 3, eh?
Maj7#5 is a cool sound (the third mode of melodic minor) but I can only pull it off as an extension of the tonic minor, so I don't count that.
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The basic thing is to see that chords come from scales... therefore you can use a particular scale over the chords which are derived from it.
So if you harmonize the A melodic minor scale you get these chords:
Am/M7
Bm7
CM7#5
D7
E7
F#m7b5
G#m7b5
So A mel m will work over all of them.
The trick, of course, is to know when to use the mel m because it's not the only scale that works over those chords. Harmonizing other scales also produces some of them. For example, D7 is in the key of G major but also G harmonic minor.
The simplest way is like this ( you already mentioned some of these and others have too):
Dm7 ------------- D mel m AND C mel m
Bm7b5 ---------- D mel m (because Bm7b5 has the same notes as an Dm6 chord) AND C mel m (because Bm7b5 is the vii chord in the C mel m scale. Experiment with that sound, it's nice).
Dm/M7----------- D mel m
G7#11 ----------- D mel m
G13b9 ----------- F mel m
G7alt ------------- Ab mel m
Plain major7 chords - don't use
CM7#5 ------------- A mel m
Cm6 ---------------- C mel m (when the Cm is a i chord)
You can put all that into different keys, of course. You need to experiment with the sounds to really get it properly.
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Incidentally, the mel m is very useful for modal tunes. I won't do complicated examples but in 'So What', for example, there are all those bars of Dm7. D Dorian (C maj) is the go-to scale but you can also slip in the D mel m which gives the C# note.
If you listen to the 'Kind Of Blue' recording you'll hear Miles doing it in first few bars of his solo. You'll hear an odd note, almost like a harmonic minor sound. That's the C#.
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Sorry, I left out your original question!!
Originally Posted by DonovanT
They're all good. C mel m over G7#5 is good even if the I chord is CM7. G7 is the V of both C major and C minor and C mel has the Eb in it. So it's fine.**
Abm over G7alt is the altered scale, so that's okay (for both major and minor).
D mel m over Bm7b5 is perfect. The books usually say locrian for a m7b5 (Bm7b5 = C maj) but it's unusual to find a m7b5 away from a minor ii-V, so iv mel m is better.
** It can depend on the speed of play. If your m7b5 and 7b9 are going past together fast then just use the harmonic minor over both. It's a lot easier than trying to use two scales.
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Ahh yes you’re 3rd use is one I hadn’t thought thank you! Our 2nd listed uses are the same. And yea my 3rd point and your 4th are also the same just written differently. I edited my original post to try and clear it up. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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C melodic minor over minor is something i had not considered, very interesting sound. Also your example of playing melodic minor from the i on a vii chord is something i had not considered but seems so obvious and sounds great. Lots of stuff to experiment with here. Thanks Originally Posted by ragman1
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As a companion to #2 play Db MM when moving from a I7 (C7) to a IV7 (F7) chord. It gives you all the altered sounds that resolve to the IV. Larry Carlton called the melodic minor blues ramp or something like that. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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ragman...
So if you harmonize the A melodic minor scale you get these chords:
Am/M7
Bm7
CM7#5
D7
E7
F#m7b5
G#m7b5
So A mel m will work over all of them.
The trick, of course, is to know when to use the mel m because it's not the only scale that works over those chords. Harmonizing other scales also produces some of them. For example, D7 is in the key of G major but also G harmonic minor.
you use a very important word in your post experiment..I see the last four chords as all dominants D7 E7 D9 (no root) E9 (no root)..
my approach here is this..breaking out of just using the MM scale but using the basic logic that "all the chords are the same" in this amazing scale
so I see the D7 and E7 and use the triads in the chords..all their inversions and melodic patterns of their basic scales and triad pairs
then..alter them..b5 #5 b9 #9..now I can use diminished and augmented scale elements..and the Eb and F MM scales..(see the implications here)
the F# and G#mi7b5 = D9 E9 = Ab7#5b9 Bb7#5b9 ohh boy.. again.. diminished and augmented scales and fragments and A and B MM scales
consider all the chord possibilities within the diminished and augmented scales added to the MM flavors..hmmm nice tasty stuff here
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So, mathemathically, you can use it.... with all chords imaginable.
There is everything. 3 sets of m7b5s, a min7, dom7 with b9 b5 #9 #5.... was there a maj7? yes. kinda... with #5. 2 straight dom7s... 3rd one with omitted 5th.
Bunch of augs. And a dim. And a minmaj7
perfect porridge.Last edited by emanresu; 10-25-2022 at 01:59 PM.
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Harmonizing Amel min could also be viewed as follows:
1. Am6 or Aminmaj7
2. Bsusb9
3. Cmaj7#5
4. D7#11
5. E9b13 Note: Levine has this as Aminmaj7/E. Notes are A C E G# or from E, 4 b13 R 3. But, Levine also says there's no avoid note, so you can put in whatever notes you like. The fifth mode is E F# G# A B C D, which includes E7, but if you add additional notes you can get to E9b13. Not strictly a tertian build, but Levine goes non-tertian with his susb9, so why not?
6. F#m7b5
7. G#7alt
Per Mark Levine, all of these chords are the same chord and can be used interchangeably.
The only usage I would add is Cmelmin against D7. D Eb F G A B C or, R b9 #9 11 5 13 7. Only the G doesn't quite fit (depending how you use it). I often wonder if it would be better to remove the so-called avoid note in various situations and think of the 6 note scale, if you need to think that way.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 10-26-2022 at 02:50 PM.
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A road less travelled re melodic minor - the Warne Marsh two octaves scale.
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Yes, but experiment doesn't mean some aimless probing into something vague and invented or impractical, it just means actually trying out sensible things in a real way to better understand them. Originally Posted by wolflen
But they're not. I know why you say it but a m7b5 is not a dom7.I see the last four chords as all dominants D7 E7 D9 (no root) E9 (no root)..
Well, you better tell the OP, not me. He asked about the MM so that's what he got!my approach here is this..breaking out of just using the MM scale
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C melodic minor against D7 is the same as your number 2 chord. Playing A melodic minor over B7 makes the B7sus(b9). Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Personally I play this a lot. In a II-V-I in G, Ami7 becomes Cma7 and D7 becomes Cmi(ma7). It makes for some very satisfying runs.
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Charlie christian liked IV melodic minor on V. Have a look at the opening of this solo on the Eb7 chord
The Tristano school were a bit obsessed with him. They called this scale dominant II, melodic minor on the b7(dominant I being the melodic minor on 5 and dominant II being the melodic minor on b9. See my vid for details.
Today this scale is associated with the V7sus4b9 chord, as setemupjoe said, and we call it a dorian b2. it tends to get overlooked so I call it ‘the forgotten dominant’. In theoretic terms it belongs to our diminished family of subs
V7 —> bVII7 —> bII7
or
IIm —> IVm —> bVIm
However as modern jazz theory has this weird and kind of backwards way of teaching ii V Is people worry about using sus type ideas on dominants. OOHH NO ITS THE DREADED AVOID NOTE!!! Arghhh
Don’t. Everyone does it and it’s big and clever. If you say it’s sus, it’s sus.
furthermore it’s quite common to use minor scales on dominant chords. This scale, or indeed the pentatonic is quite often a better sound on 7#9 than altered in tunes like all blues. Try it.
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Hi Christian , Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Sorry I can't follow you (I'm a bit slow)
Could you send a description using actual note names please ?
eg. " for a tune in D , on the G7 try playing F melodic minor "
Or whatever
I find it easier to follow ....
Thanks man
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Damn, how did i forget MM from the IV over Vsusb9? That was literally the first use i was shown. Very Herbie sounding, thanks everyone who pointed that out.
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Er... where does the D# come from in the A melodic minor to turn Bm7 into B7? I know E is the sus note but that doesn't make it a B7. Maybe not even a Bm7. In fact, I don't know where some of those new chords have come from at all.
Roughly? Where does the A come from?E9b13 (roughly, it's got an A)
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After Lennie (and Warne).... Originally Posted by pingu
Dominant I = D MM on G7
Dominant II = F MM on G7
Dominant III = Ab MM on G7
There's a little more to it, but hopefully you can see the diminished symmetry in action.
On the Rose Room recording, we are in Ab. Charlie Christian plays Db MM on Eb7
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A mel m on G7... with an F# and G#. Would someone explain that, please? No, really :-)Dominant III = A MM on G7
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Sorry should be Ab. Auto correct :-) I've fixed it. Originally Posted by ragman1
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Oh, well, that's old hat :-)
(At least someone didn't say 'Yeah, but it's JAZZ, innit?)
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I edited the original post. Levine calls it Bsusb9. His text, p 61-62 explains that the important notes, to him, are b9, 4, 6. Originally Posted by ragman1
For the E9b13, which is my way of thinking about it, I took the same liberty. Picking notes from the scale that I thought made sense and not just strictly tertian. The A comes from Amelmin and so does the E9b13. E B D F# C.
The only way I actually use this is that I sometimes think melodic minor on susb9 chords. Say, Amelmin on Bsusb9.
In comping, I try to be aware that every chord on Levine's list is the same chord because any combination of notes from the scale can make a usable chord, although some sound better than others.
And, generally speaking, I'm not very concerned with getting every note in a solo from the approved scale. I want to make melody and avoid notes that sound like clams. If I'm thinking about scales (which is already an indication that things are heading south) I don't care if there's a note that doesn't fit a particular scale. I'll just play a different one.
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Did Barry Harris ever comment on Lenny Tristano
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