Minor Keys

[2-5Guy]

I keep getting myself all twisted up when I hear, for example, someone say "I'm using a chord progression in Cm". Or, "I'm borrowing this chord from Cm."
My first instinct is to say, "What minor key are you referring to?" C Natural Minor? C Harmonic Minor? C Melodic Minor? Is there an assumption I should be aware of when it's not specified?

This is primarily the reason why I don't stray from the Major keys.
I want to branch out and start learning and incorporating minor keys in my playing but I don't know where within the world of minor's I need to be looking at.

[pcjazz]

C Minor is a key. C Melodic Minor is a scale.

[2-5Guy]

C Minor is a key. C Melodic Minor is a scale.

A key with a b3, b6 and b7? Aka Natural Minor?

[2-5Guy]

If I played, Cm, Fm, G.
Wouldn't that be considered a I, IV, V in C Harmonic Minor?

But since C Harmonic Minor is not a key but a scale, then how do I identify where that progression comes from?

[AllanAllen]

I think it’s better to pick a specific song and ask for specific guidance.

[Tal_175]

It's easier to think of minor keys in terms of the chords you'll commonly encounter in minor tunes or in borrowed contexts (modal interchange) and figure out the scales they come from by looking at the other chords in the progression or the melody notes. Since it's only the 6ths and 7th vary among the 4 common minor scales (Dorian, Natural, Harmonic and Melodic), you should be able to figure out the candidate scales for each chord easily.
The following I think are the most common minor key chords:

i chord: min6, min7 or majMin
ii chord: half diminished or min7
biii chord: Augmented or Maj7
iv chord: Minor or Dominant
V chord: Dominant
bVI chord: Maj7
vi chord: Minor 7 or half-diminished
bVII chord: Dominant
VII chord: Diminished or half-diminished

I might be missing some but I'm counting 14 chords in total. In a way more complicated that the major scale which has only 7 diatonic chords but that's misleading. The major key has so much more variations than you'd typically find in the minor key tunes IMO.

[2-5Guy]

It's easier to think of minor keys in terms of the chords you'll commonly encounter in minor tunes or in borrowed contexts (modal interchange) and figure out the scales they come from by looking at the other chords in the progression or the melody notes. Since it's only the 6ths and 7th vary among the 4 common minor scales (Dorian, Natural, Harmonic and Melodic), you should be able to figure out the candidate scales for each chord easily.
The following I think are the most common minor key chords:

i chord: min6, min7 or majMin
ii chord: half diminished or min7
iii chord: Major or augmented.
iv chord: Minor or Dominant
V chord: Dominant
bVI chord: Major
vi chord: Minor 7 or half-diminished
bVII chord: Dominant
VII chord: Diminished or half-diminished

I might be missing some but I'm counting 14 chords in total. In a way more complicated that the major scale which has only 7 diatonic chords but that's misleading. The major key has so much more variations than you'd typically find in the minor key tunes IMO.

I understand what you're saying.

When I was introduced to music theory my instructor thought it would be easier for me to base everything on the major scale. Modes, secondary dominates, tri-tones, etc.
And, as you pointed out, if for example I saw a Dm7 and Em7 spoken together within the same context of a song or progression, I could conclude that they were the ii and iii chords respectively in C major.
And as such, I could also speak in D Dorian and E Phrygian within the same context. I get that.

What was always throwing me off was how the term "minor" was being thrown around.

It's hard for me to articulate exactly where my confusion lies. But every once in a while I get twisted up again.

[Christian Miller]

I keep getting myself all twisted up when I hear, for example, someone say "I'm using a chord progression in Cm". Or, "I'm borrowing this chord from Cm."
My first instinct is to say, "What minor key are you referring to?" C Natural Minor? C Harmonic Minor? C Melodic Minor? Is there an assumption I should be aware of when it's not specified?

This is primarily the reason why I don't stray from the Major keys.
I want to branch out and start learning and incorporating minor keys in my playing but I don't know where within the world of minor's I need to be looking at.

The stereotypical minor chords are from the harmonic minor - the clue’s in the name. The minor that is harmonic, right?

So in C minor

Cm Do Eb+ Fm G Ab Bo

or in 7th chords
Cm(maj7) Dm7b5 Ebmaj7#5 Fm7 G7 Abmaj7 Bo7

But it may vary. Those ones are pretty common tho;

The main natural minor chords I can think of off the top of my head are Bb7 and Ebmaj7

[Christian Miller]

Weird thing - it’s really quite common to combine other minor key chords with notes from the major key. Good examples would be Bb7#11 and Fm(maj)7 in the key of C

[Tal_175]

Weird thing - it’s really quite common to combine other minor key chords with notes from the major key. Good examples would be Bb7#11 and Fm(maj)7 in the key of C

That's true. The example you gave is sometimes considered modal interchange but (as you imply) it isn't. Subdominant minor is another term I heard used for this.

[ragman1]

"What minor key are you referring to?"

Harmonic.

This is primarily the reason why I don't stray from the Major keys.

I doubt that, that's silly. You just need to look it up.

[2-5Guy]

Harmonic. Ok, got it.
That makes life simpler.

Thanks.

[Bobby Timmons]

That's true. The example you gave is sometimes considered modal interchange but (as you imply) it isn't. Subdominant minor is another term I heard used for this.

It's basically mixing anything that's functional and applying it within minor. There's no system.

[Alter]

I see minor keys as just being more complicated than major ones. Borrowing from all these minor modes (natural, melodic, harmonic, etc.), is so common, and using secondary dominant chords as well, that it all becomes sort of a "minor tonality" family.

[ragman1]

Harmonic. Ok, got it.
That makes life simpler.

Also, don't forget that, in sticking to major keys, most tunes in a major key (not just jazz tunes) contain minor progressions within them.

Fly Me To The Moon, for instance, looks like this:

Am7 - Dm7 - G7 - CM7
FM7 - Bm7b5 - E7 - Am

That repeats several times and, at the end, it goes

Dm7 - G7 - Em7b5 - A7
Dm7 - G7 - C6 - %

So there's two right there. That's a simple example but the point is that, by keeping to major tunes, you're not really avoiding minor keys at all, it's just not so obvious.

[bako]

Disclaimer; unverified story/myth I came to believe. I ain’t a historian but this is possibly at least partially true and makes sense to me:

In the days when modes not scales were the only game in town, major scales aka Ionian were not the starting referential scale that they later evolved to be. The various minor modes lacking a leading tone presented a weaker cadential option that was present in Ionian. Composers started inserting a cadential leading tone for first the final ending and then later for also the end of sections. This gave birth to harmonic minor. It is called “harmonic” because that was the motivation that a leading tone was inserted. The classical music melodic minor scale evolved to smooth out the awkward melodic augmented 2nd of the harmonic minor. This is a Western Eurocentric storyline because in at least some countries eastward, the harmonic minor note collection was prominently used melodically.

So (Ionian) major scales over time became the default tonal reference and the Aeolian/Natural minor the starting reference minor that shares a key signature with it’s relative major. Although major scales can just as readily insert auxiliary harmonies, having a dominant V7 makes it more self contained. Songs with a minor centricity are far messier than major ones and often involve modal interchange movements (borrowed notes/chords).
Minor songs sometimes integrate notes and chords derived from more than one scale source.
While Natural minor is the key signature representative, minor key common possibles often transcend the basic note collection.

Some simple examples: Am G F E7 or Am G7 F7 E7 or Am Am/G D/F# F E7
Minor movements that integrate G, G#, Eb and F# harmonies.

[RyanM]

Start by learning minor key songs - look at the chords melodies and solos to see how they are actually used

[mr. beaumont]

While Natural minor is the key signature representative, minor key common possibles often transcend the basic note collection.

Simply and perfectly put.

[RunningBeagle]

Another perspective...:

Kingdom: Music
Phylum: Major, Minor (characteristic note: b3), Other (symmetrical, diminished, synthetic stuff)Class:

• b6
  
  • Order:
    
    • Natural minor (b7)
    • Harmonic minor (natural 7)
    • Phrygian (b2)
    • Locrian (b2, b5)
  
  
• natural 6
  
  • Order:
    
    • Dorian (b7)
    • Melodic minor (natural 7)

I'm sure there's a more thoughtful way of organizing these tonal families, but the main point is "minor" means anything with a flat third. The other notes are there for color or functional reasons, and those reasons carry over to "construction" of chords based on the minor tonality.

[jameslovestal]

I understand what you're saying.

When I was introduced to music theory my instructor thought it would be easier for me to base everything on the major scale. Modes, secondary dominates, tri-tones, etc.
And, as you pointed out, if for example I saw a Dm7 and Em7 spoken together within the same context of a song or progression, I could conclude that they were the ii and iii chords respectively in C major.
And as such, I could also speak in D Dorian and E Phrygian within the same context. I get that.

What was always throwing me off was how the term "minor" was being thrown around.

It's hard for me to articulate exactly where my confusion lies. But every once in a while I get twisted up again.

Note that any "confusion" may be with the person that says "I'm using a chord progression in Cm".

I would just ask the person to play the 7 chords they associate with a harmonic chord progression in Cm (to ensure a common understanding).

[2-5Guy]

Note that any "confusion" may be with the person that says "I'm using a chord progression in Cm".

I would just ask the person to play the 7 chords they associate with a harmonic chord progression in Cm (to ensure a common understanding).

This^^^
Yes, you see where I'm coming from.
Thank you.

[Tal_175]

This^^^
Yes, you see where I'm coming from.
Thank you.

Unlike the major key, the minor key isn't defined by 7 diatonic chords. Minor tune progressions are made up of chords from multiple minor scales.

[emanresu]

In my experience, all sad stuff so far make me use melodic minor in a solo. Almost never natural, never ever harmonic. Could be some freaky bias.

edit: huge sorry here. when dominants are used - melodic. when it goes to the home (sad minor), then natural. but its probably a basic bias.

edit2: don't listen to me.

[ragman1]

Minor Keys

RyanM has already said it. Don't get lost in all the theory and the words and symbols, go to a simple tune. Just start, be simple, be clear. There's not much to learn when all's said and done. It's the thinking that's confusing, not the reality.

[wolflen]

I keep getting myself all twisted up when I hear, for example, someone say "I'm using a chord progression in Cm". Or, "I'm borrowing this chord from Cm."
My first instinct is to say, "What minor key are you referring to?" C Natural Minor? C Harmonic Minor? C Melodic Minor? Is there an assumption I should be aware of when it's not specified?

This is primarily the reason why I don't stray from the Major keys.
I want to branch out and start learning and incorporating minor keys in my playing but I don't know where within the world of minor's I need to be looking at.

When I began to study harmony/theory..I became aware that most teaching material and teachers said the minor tonalities can incorporate other minor scales/modes/chords
that are not related to a fixed minor KEY..Example C minor (three flats..relative to Eb Major)

Now it took a great deal of study and practice to get this concept in my ears and fingers..and as "rules" faded..and new chords/scales fit in harmonic spaces that were reserved for the natural minor
only format..it unlocked a new tonal universe..suddenly the improvised line in a minor framework was expanded..to include altered Major..augmented..diminished..whole tone..and many altered dominant
structures

my love of the melodic minor mixed with diminished and augmented scale / chord flavors gives me many choices to improvised with.
the fusion style (or whatever it is being called now) and progressive jazz..and some rock have absorbed this mix of scales/modes and harmonic progressions in most of
todays compositions and is being thought by mainstream players in their methods and music schools.

so I suggest you begin to experiment with this exploration..study some tunes by Hancock (Maiden Voyage / Dolphin Dance) Miles..of course..Kind of Blue album .Blue in Green

and many of today's music offerings..common sounds of suspended chords and basic triads with the bass note (slash chords) altering its flavor ..very hip sounding harmonic movement..

and using minor scales..chord fragments and minor harmonic devices from different minor scales and modes create some very cool sounding lines..

just some thoughts