Phrygian Dominant Add #9

[rintincop]

"One of the last things I learned from Barry was that a lot of the time it’s good NOT to go to that 3rd."
Interesting, care to expand on the idea there? I suppose it means don't do it to excess. By the way, I've become a fan of your posts and videos.

[FwLineberry]

Anything works if you can play and nothing works if you can’t…

I just wish it hadn't taken me over 40 years of playing to begin realizing the validity of this statement.

.

[pauln]

Barry Harris gave detailed instructions on use of something similar "Over G7 play the Bb7 Dominant scale down from its 7th (Ab) to B the 3rd of G7."

Let's be more detailed:
Aren't there three versions of the eight note Dominant scale, depending on where the eighth note is inserted?
Which Bb7 Dominant scale? Same as asking what exactly are the pitches from its 7th (Ab) to B the 3rd of G7?

[rintincop]

Bb7 Mixo add B

[pauln]

Bb7 Mixo

Not more names, alphabet character letters (notes) with accidentals as needed, please.

Like this...

Bb7 Mixolydian is Bb C D Eb F G Ab Bb
From which we get Ab G F Eb D C and add the B

C harmonic minor C D Eb F G Ab B C D Eb F G Ab B C
Reversed C B Ab G F Eb D C B Ab G F Eb D C B

Why not call it C HM?

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

If naming the scale takes longer than playing the scale, the name is too long.

[ragman1]

Phrygian Dominant Add #9

What's the problem with this? It's the harmonic minor scale with an extra 'bebop' note in it, presumably the b3.

I also don't know why it's called the #9 since the harmonic minor only has seven notes in it.

[blille]

Nay! At Berklee they would call it Mixolydian b9 b13 add #9

which is offensive to me on so many levels

At that point it may be shorter to just name all the notes.

[Christian Miller]

"One of the last things I learned from Barry was that a lot of the time it’s good NOT to go to that 3rd."
Interesting, care to expand on the idea there? I suppose it means don't do it to excess. By the way, I've become a fan of your posts and videos.

thanks!

yes he simply meant when playing over a Cm ii V I for instance - play Bb7 on the Dm7b5 and G7 and don’t include the B at all

so when we are doing our basic Barry stuff we work on connecting the diminished arpeggio off the third of the dominant (you can slot this easily in after running the scale down and into the next chord so it extends the basic scale exercise nicely.)

However Barry said that if you always do this you can get stuck in the harmonic minor without much to play. So you don’t have to include the B at all. Just carry on in Bb7. It suggests even at his level he was still thinking in terms of the dominant scale/chord/vocab mostly and what he had to play in that, but to be honest that kind of is the bebop sound, which as Reg points out is more bluesy than say, Gypsy jazz.

Sure enough if you transcribe bop language while there’s a lot of that diminished on the 3rd stuff there are also lots of lines that don’t use that B leading note.

I find this especially acute on tunes like Caravan with elongated minor key dominants. Obviously you can switch up the harmony to be more altered/tritone or even straight mixo/dominant like Wes, but I find if I keep it vanilla that I often run out of things to play on C7b9 really fast. So play Eb7 instead…

even on Chcks original recording of Spain where you might expect him to lean into the harmonic minor/phrygian dominant sound on the F#7 in fact he doesn’t.

This also leads to the backdoor/minor IV on V I subs you often see in major too, a sound that I feel is a bit neglected in most jazz theory.

[ragman1]

I still want to know why it's called a #9 when there's only 7 notes in the scale!

Ok then, eight with the extra note...

[cmajor9]

Because its an extension, which means its ‘above’ or in addition to the main notes of the chord (1-3-5-7).

[ragman1]

Yes, a #9 is a chord extension or alteration, but it's been added to the name of a scale, or rather a mode. Scales/modes are not chords.

[Tal_175]

I still want to know why it's called a #9 when there's only 7 notes in the scale!

Ok then, eight with the extra note...

There are 8 notes in the scale. Phrygian Dominant add #9 or Harmonic minor add b7 or Aeolian add natural 7 etc.

[Tal_175]

There's no 9th note to sharpen.

There is a b9. "Sharp" is not a verb but an adjective. There is no "sharpening".

[ragman1]

There are seven notes in Phrygian Dominant, which is the 5th mode of harmonic minor. Inserting the #9, as it's called, makes eight, it's not there naturally.

This is a stupid conversation.

[GuyBoden]

No, no, it's as a normal Phrygian, but with an extra note.

Simple example:

E Phrygian is E F G A B C D

E Phrygian with an extra G# is E F G G# A B C D

Personally, I add a C# as well, making a 9 note scale, I use this 9 note scale all the time, everyday.

But, this is not helping players who use the Barry Harris method.

Edit:

This is a stupid conversation.

Yes, it is.

[ragman1]

You can't say that a scale you have basically invented yourself has a bona fide name and is part of established music, etc.

[ragman1]

You're confused, Guy, you keep putting likes on completely contradictory posts!

[GuyBoden]

You're confused, Guy, you keep putting likes on completely contradictory posts!

I'm finding this thread very amusing, I can't help laughing.

[Tal_175]

You can't say that a scale you have basically invented yourself has a bona fide name and is part of established music, etc.

It's used quite a bit in bebop. So in a way it is part of established music.
That doesn't mean the original musicians were calling it a scale. But that doesn't stop educators from introducing notions like Phrygian dominant scale or sixth diminished scale etc. If these ideas are played, then it's convenient to invent language for them.
Edit: I'm not saying BH invented phrygian dominant BTW.

[ragman1]

I'm not budging an inch. The Phrygian Dominant mode is extracted from the Harmonic Minor scale. The idea of adding an extra passing note (to make the notes fall on the right places) was not invented by Barry Harris.

[Tal_175]

I'm not budging an inch. The Phrygian Dominant mode is extracted from the Harmonic Minor scale. The idea of adding an extra passing note (to make the notes fall on the right places) was not invented by Barry Harris.

Making notes fall on the right places is not the point of the #9. You are confusing everything.

[ragman1]

Then what is the point? Enlighten me.

[Tal_175]

Then what is the point? Enlighten me.

It's a melodic device. It fills the minor third interval between the b9 and the third.

[ragman1]

And which note is the b9 when there are only seven notes in the scale?