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So I've been solely practicing the advancing guitarist as a means to getting my fretboard knowledge together. I hate how most of the time back then I would get lost on the neck improvising on tunes. This time I'm setting the record straight and putting an end to this misfortune. Its been a long journey as it took me almost a year's worth of practice 11-16 hours a day with some breaks. I'm only going through with what Mick Goodrick explicitly says (or heavily implies) to do and avoiding 'optional' things to do and that is:
Improvising scales and modes on
Single Strings - (All Fingering Possibilities)
Double Adjacent Strings - (Same as above)
Open Position - (Strict 4 Fingers and then all fingerings)
12 Positions - (Strict 4 Fingers)
Whole Fretboard - (All Fingering Possibilities)
On all keys. Of course I'm also adding harmonic major and double harmonic since I would feel I would 'miss out' if I avoid them. I guess there are other scales like neapolitan major and minor too but I'm only going through the scales Mick mentioned in his book as I need to have a finish line lol.
Anyways I'm almost finished with the 'derivative' approach in which you take a parent scale and improvise modes from that parent scale. I feel this helps a lot in the beginning so your fretboard knowledge builds up instantly though it might be harder to hear the individual modes. On the major scale I can hear the modes just fine but on more advanced scales it gets harder to hear (probably due to the multiple tritones? Idk). I use drone backing tracks from youtube and drum genius to save the hassle of recording my own vamps and to keep things interesting with different feels.
At this rate it'll probably take me a year and a half to finish 'the approach' and that means starting over but this time with parallel scales then starting over with the lydian chromatic concept (for another overview). Theres also the counterpoint section in which he list interval moves; I already made a list of all possible interval moves of seven note scales so it'll probably take a while to go through those...
After all that I'll finally go through tunes!
In any case what has been your experience through 'the approach'? Any insights?
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06-29-2023 07:48 PM
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Ive done major, melodic minor, harmonic minor — intervals, triads, quartal triads, inversions etc — ascending, descending, alternating, and a few other arrangements — single strings, two strings adjacent, positions. Not open position, though.
Originally Posted by jazznylon
So I've been solely practicing the advancing guitarist as a means to getting my fretboard knowledge together. I hate how most of the time back then I would get lost on the neck improvising on tunes. This time I'm setting the record straight and putting an end to this misfortune. Its been a long journey as it took me almost a year's worth of practice 11-16 hours a day with some breaks. I'm only going through with what Mick Goodrick explicitly says (or heavily implies) to do and avoiding 'optional' things to do and that is:
Improvising scales and modes on
Single Strings - (All Fingering Possibilities)
Double Adjacent Strings - (Same as above)
Open Position - (Strict 4 Fingers and then all fingerings)
12 Positions - (Strict 4 Fingers)
Whole Fretboard - (All Fingering Possibilities)
On all keys. Of course I'm also adding harmonic major and double harmonic since I would feel I would 'miss out' if I avoid them. I guess there are other scales like neapolitan major and minor too but I'm only going through the scales Mick mentioned in his book as I need to have a finish line lol.
Anyways I'm almost finished with the 'derivative' approach in which you take a parent scale and improvise modes from that parent scale. I feel this helps a lot in the beginning so your fretboard knowledge builds up instantly though it might be harder to hear the individual modes. On the major scale I can hear the modes just fine but on more advanced scales it gets harder to hear (probably due to the multiple tritones? Idk). I use drone backing tracks from youtube and drum genius to save the hassle of recording my own vamps and to keep things interesting with different feels.
At this rate it'll probably take me a year and a half to finish 'the approach' and that means starting over but this time with parallel scales then starting over with the lydian chromatic concept (for another overview). Theres also the counterpoint section in which he list interval moves; I already made a list of all possible interval moves of seven note scales so it'll probably take a while to go through those...
After all that I'll finally go through tunes! In any case what has been your experience through 'the approach'? Any insights?
By far the most useful to me were the single and pairs of strings. Super useful for getting out of positions, using the ear a bit more, and kind of categorizing stuff I guess.
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Are you playing with other people or anything? 16 hours a day running the major scale is insane. Really….. No tunes at all?
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Yeah, again mine was pretty casual, but I got through a tonnnnnn doing about an hour a day. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Not sure about the other 9-15
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Nice! I like single strings a lot too. More opportunities for phrasing and stuff like that. It becomes more playing the guitar rather than the guitar playing you. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Nope. I've become somewhat of a hermit basically, I rarely go out and play with others. As for tunes they will come but when I do get to them I'm gonna be learning around 1300 melodies and not practice anything else. I prefer to zone in on one thing generally speaking, its extreme but thats the way I roll Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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I don’t know if you’ll be a good jazz player, but I do worry for your health. At my most intense period I was doing up to eight hours, but looking back that was way too much. Get out and smell the roses. I’m sure that will help with your musicianship too!
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Originally Posted by jazznylon
I'm curious if you have gone through all the scales concurrently, or one-at-a-time.
Originally Posted by jazznylon
How are you planning to implement the LCC. Have you studied Russell's book at all?
Originally Posted by jazznylon
I never specifically went through the approach, because I had already done a lot of that work, in piecemeal fashion, over the years prior to obtaining the book. I wish I would have encountered Mick's book a few years earlier than I did. Instead, I would just read through the book, periodically, and practice whatever caught my eye at the time. Now, decades later, I'm thinking I might just go back through the material step-by-step. Trouble is... now I have very little motivation to apply that kind of discipline.
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I don't know if I'll be any good either and to be frank all this work should've been done a long time ago but due to heavy depression I stopped playing guitar for the most part for 8 years. Its frustrating to look back and see that I did barely anything in those years (except changing my tuning) but thats life I suppose. In any case nothing awful has come up so far recently during my deep dive practice sessions however if I see a shark I'll definitedly pull back! But thanks anyways Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
On a side note I find it interesting how for double harmonic (and some other scales with 2 consecutive half steps) I only need to use 3 fingers within any given position to play it. Its a weird quirk of my tuning but an interesting discovery nonethelessLast edited by jazznylon; 06-30-2023 at 02:56 PM.
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Scales I do it one at a time. I improvise for 2 minutes at a time doing "plan b" (which you'll find on pg. 12) Originally Posted by FwLineberry
For the LCC I haven't read it but I came across some info on the web pertaining to the list of scales and their use. My plan is to go through the list top to bottom from consonance to dissonance using a stable drone note as backing track and improvising using the scales (while limiting myself just like for the derivative and parallel approach) in 12 keys.
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No it doesn't make sense to me. If my main goal at the moment was to make music I could always throw the book away, disregard everything it says and just work on tunes by ear. I just want to work on chops and having fretboard awareness. Sure it might not be my 'best interest' but its far from the worst (or at least I think so). Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
I'm also not a big fan of 'balanced' approaches. Better to learn 5 things really well than 20 things half assing it or even better just learn 1 thing (then move onto to the next thing etc).
As for Mick Goodrick taking something from the real world and giving it back thats great. I'm sure there are plenty of amazing artists that share that same sentiment. But I'm not too interested in the 'real world', all it has given me mostly was suffering and grief. The only thing that interest me is my guitar and I guess food, but other than that... no. (Oh I guess there is instagram too lol jk jk)!
But yeah thats my take on things. Playing with other people is always fun but I'm a patient man. I'll do anything to reach my goal (no matter how misguided it seems)
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Not misguided at all. Just giving a very personal perspective on something that is, in the end, a very personal journey. Originally Posted by jazznylon
I wish you all the best in your time with this book and the new avenues it might provide. It's certainly been a great source of inspiration for me and it's been over two decades of working with this stuff.
Nice thing about seeing something you can get a fresh take on, you do it and then you own it. Hat's off to you jazznylon.
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Thank you. If theres only 1 book out of the many out there that I could learn from it would definitedly be this book. I'm working on positions now and half-way finished with double harmonic (6 keys done). Its exciting to be able start with parallel scales soon and play with whole tone, pentatonic and diminished scales.. I say bring it on Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
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Jazznylon, your might like to dig into Mick Goodrick's Almanacs too.
All 3 volumes of the almanacs are now available for free.
Resources - Modern Guitar Harmony
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It's never finished.
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I don't know when I'll ever get to those but they are definitedly on my 'to do list' Originally Posted by Liarspoker
One could certainly look at it that way Originally Posted by pcjazz
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AdvancING is an important word. Originally Posted by pcjazz
For his entire life, Mick was coming up with new ideas to try out. In the end, he said "I can't wait to get started in my next life."Last edited by Jimmy blue note; 07-02-2023 at 02:09 AM.
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In a post that seems to be gone you talked about a list of tunes Mick Goodrick had his students learn, Where can one find this list? Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
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If scientists could find a way to extend human life indefinitedly I could easily see myself working on this book for sooooo many years to come. Improvising on all possible string set groupings, weird exotic scales, all that good stuff. But until then if that happens at all I'm content with the finish line I put up. Lets hope that it happens in our lifetime! Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
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Here you go. Originally Posted by Bop Head
He had these chosen to give a mixed variety of tempo, feel (straight 1/8ths), ballads and faster tunes. He thought if you learned these, off book and internalized, during the semester, you'd have a good solid grounding for more ideas without song form being an obstacle.
Hope this is helpful.
He had a second list but I can't find mine and his papers are still locked up until the courts allow me access.
Did you know that Mick once made a huge (cassette) collection of Real Book tunes wherein he played tunes from the Real Book from one end of the Real Book from one end to the other, with the left side playing chords and the right side playing the head and an improvisation? You'd pop in a cassette, turn the balance from one side or the other and work on your chords or single line playing. Of course they were great to listen to just to hear him in duet with himself.
He had told his students to do this as an assignment but nobody did, saying it was too hard of an undertaking.
Mick then got a Tascam multi tracker and over a vacation break recorded a (12 or 15) cassette collection to show that it could indeed be done. Because he didn't have copyrite permission to record these standards, they were only distributed to his students and there was no name associated with those cassettes, just Real Book (and a number) written on the cassettes in sharpie.
There ARE CD copies of this out there somewhere, speed correct and cleaned up. He wanted to re-do this project after he retired; I was going to engineer it and we were even going to have some of his former students "guest" on their own favourite tunes (so it'd be a duo project on standards that would provide a learning platform too) but he got sick and this never happened.Last edited by Jimmy blue note; 07-03-2023 at 02:42 AM.
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Thank you very much Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
Here you go.
He had these chosen to give a mixed variety of tempo, feel (straight 1/8ths), ballads and faster tunes. He thought if you learned these, off book and internalized, during the semester, you'd have a good solid grounding for more ideas without song form being an obstacle.
Hope this is helpful.
He had a second list but I can't find mine and his papers are still locked up until the law allows me access.
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I first met Mick in the late 1980's, just as The Advancing Guitarist was coming out. I was never his full-on student at Berklee or NEC, but benefited from his mentorship nonetheless.
Mick gave a lot of thought to the cyclical/balanced nature or practice. 7 days a week, 7 modes. 12 months, 12 keys, etc And while balance could mean having a varied everyday practice routine, it could also mean focusing in on one thing for a period of time, and eventually moving on to something different. There was never any sense of something being 'finished', just something worked to its natural stopping point and then perhaps put aside for a while.
Another thing that Mick spoke frankly about was the very real possibility of career-threatening overuse injuries. If you're in a position to dedicate every waking hour to music, great! Just be mindful of the physical aspects of what you're doing. Take regular breaks, playing sitting and standing (and varying the chair you sit in), going for walks while visualising the fretboard (watch out for taxicabs!) exploring the sounds on the piano, on paper, vocally, etc can all help make a 16 hour practice day safer on your body.
Best wishes for your music!
PK
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Thank you and yes. I bought a dual hook guitar strap for my 10 string classical so I can move about and stand while practicing. The thought of sitting down everyday for 16 hours sounds like a recipe for disaster waiting to happen so I'm safe on that front. Generally for practicing I like for things to have a beginning and an end. There are very few things I would consider doing that I wouldn't end (like working on songs or playing with other people for example). But yeah all in due time of course Originally Posted by paulkogut
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Jimmy Blue Note is trying to say it more gently, as per his personality, so I'll be a tad more blunt: I think spending 8+ hours a day on this stuff is extremely counterproductive.
You should have a base set of scale fingerings that you know cold (and all the arpeggios in them). If I were to ever recommend anyone going full-throttle on learning scales, that's what I would tell them to focus on. But that should not take 8 hour practice sessions. Whether it's Reg's fingerings, CAGED, 3 NPS, whatever... pick something that makes sense to you and work on it until you don't have to think about it anymore.
The single string (and two string, the extreme positional playing, etc) stuff that Mick advocated were all methods to then get out of those boxes. They are great for re-aligning your brain, increasing the connection between brain and hands, seeing the fretboard in a totally different way, developing a more pianistic approach to the instrument, etc.
But it is not the kind of stuff that is meant to be brute forced. There is certain practice material that lends itself to marathon practice sessions -- this is not one of them. This is the flipside to cold-blooded technical work. It's a separate compliment to it, not just a different variation of it.
One thing that I think many guitarists do not realize about Mick's teachings was the caliber of students he was working with. When he was at his second go-round at Berklee, not every guitar player could just sign up for lessons with him. Berklee separated their students into proficiency levels, and Mick was one of the few teachers that required a student to hit a certain proficiency level before they could study with him. And it was a pretty high bar. Before that he was at NEC, where the entry audition process is up there with Julliard in terms of difficulty.
That means that his lessons were geared towards and informed by working with students who could already play really well. He didn't spend time talking about "here are the seven positions for a major scale, melodic minor scale, here's how you play the changes to 'All The Things You Are'..." because anyone who walked through his office door already knew that stuff backwards and forwards.
That's not to say I think you should be an advanced player before tackling this stuff. If you're at the level where you can understand what he's talking about and do it, they are very beneficial exercises for everyone. But if you're looking for hardcore woodshed sessions, there's other stuff for that.
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OP title made me laugh.
in theory this stuff is finite. In practice it may as well be infinite. You can always think of a new variation or application.
The thing that might constitute finishing might be something like ‘developing enough fluency in fretboard mapping that you can do this stuff more or less in real time.’ But even then…
when I first encountered VL cycles about a decade ago, I couldn’t work on them for more than a few minutes without a headache.
I think it’s like a really long journey to a distant mountain, you put one foot in front of the other. If you run you’ll never make it. On the other hand if you walk you have adventures and meet interesting characters on the way
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Interesting reply. I already know all the shapes but somewhere in the back in my mind I knew that I'm wasting a lot of time on just repeating the same shapes but with different fingerings. On pg. 11 he goes over the breakdown of finger possibilities so I just went along and did every one of them (for single string, double string, open position and whole fretboard). Its a massive undertaking but frankly quite boring sometimes. So yeah maybe I shouldn't do that anymore... maybe I should just use all 4 fingers from now on. That would drastically reduce the time for me to finish everything. What would you recommend for hardcore woodshed sessions? Originally Posted by dasein
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