The Circle of Fifths

**FatJeff** · 05-07-2010, 10:58 AM

Saw this over at the Gear Page. Thought it was quite interesting!

Circle of Fifths

**Dookychase** · 05-07-2010, 11:52 AM

Man, all those angles. I was never good at algebra.

So, now my questions would sound like, What's the b9 of an isosceles triangle? lol

**GuitaRoland** · 05-07-2010, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by FatJeff

Saw this over at the Gear Page. Thought it was quite interesting!

Circle of Fifths

This must be something for BigDaddyLoveHandles to grab!

/R

**timscarey** · 05-07-2010, 12:20 PM

That's pretty cool. Although, imo only really useful if you can't really play very well and you have to pass a theory final....

Honestly. No matter how you arrange the pitches patterns and shapes will present themselves when chords are extracted. I mean, a chord quality is nothing more than the spacial relationship between points in space. Thus is the nature of harmony. The circle of fifths is just the most logical system so attempt to show the relativity of the 12 points.

Too sciencey.... ha ha ha

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 05-07-2010, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by GuitaRoland

This must be something for BigDaddyLoveHandles to grab!

Is it a coincidence that you can conjure up Satan with a 7#9 chord?

**robertm2000** · 05-07-2010, 01:45 PM

Never conjured Satan with a 7#9. But I was in college studying music when I first heard Hendrix. Tried to figure out the "Purple Haze" chord, naively asked my theory teacher about it (new professor). He listened to "Purple Haze" and decided he liked Hendrix! The music department chairman took offense and the poor teacher only lasted another year. I transferred out of the department.

Colleges seem able to screw up anyone who actually likes music...

**Sailor** · 05-07-2010, 10:35 PM

That is some crazy shit!! I hope Mr. B gets around to burning that whole thing too!!

Sailor

**elixzer** · 05-08-2010, 07:03 AM

HI

I was encouraged to share this here. I am about to begin studying the 'circle' of fiths/forths as it is usually called.
However several weeks ago when I was checking out videos to do with music theory I cam across this guitar tutor who claims he never really 'got' the circle diagram, and devised his own diagram which he thinks is more understandable.

I am hoping those interested will checkout his diagram and explanation and let us know which do you prefer, his or the regular CIRCLE diagram, and please let us know why please

The video starts where he reads out a guitar students difficulty he has with the circle diagram, at 5:19 he begins explaining the circle diagram, and then at 7:57 he shows the diagram they use which he suggests is more understandable.

I am curious what you all think about this:

**bako** · 05-08-2010, 08:45 AM

Each chart will reveal certain truths more directly. His chart works well for key signatures and the correlation between keys that have the same number of flats and sharps. Among the many relations shown in the original chart of the original post, the circle of 5ths chart shows how that interval arrives at every note before returning to the starting one which is not apparent in the staircase format.

**elixzer** · 05-08-2010, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by bako

Each chart will reveal certain truths more directly. His chart works well for key signatures and the correlation between keys that have the same number of flats and sharps.

So are you saying that for that knowledge his diagram is better than the circle one?

Among the many relations shown in the original chart of the original post, the circle of 5ths chart shows how that interval arrives at every note before returning to the starting one which is not apparent in the staircase format.

Hmmm not sure I dig that compariosn yet as I am just about to study all this

**bako** · 05-08-2010, 07:08 PM

His chart showed the key signatures enacted in scales. He lined up the keys with those having the same number of flats and sharps directly across from each other.

The circle diagram also gives you the order of sharp and flat keys by going clockwise or counter clockwise. The keys with the same number of flats and sharps also have a physical relationship that can be seen. It doesn't spell out the key signatures for you.

Two staircases converging on a common peak or a circle that continuously cycles through symmetrical 5ths that hit every note before returning home.
Each chart has it's strengths. It depends on what information you are trying to assimilate.

Key signatures are important to memorize. If a chart or memory trick helps you then that's great. If you can do it by rote memorization, that's fine too.

**mr. beaumont** · 05-08-2010, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by Sailor

That is some crazy shit!! I hope Mr. B gets around to burning that whole thing too!!

Sailor

I think first I will perhaps draw a 7#9 chord with it. Then I will project it on the backdrop while my new band Unecessary Surgery plays.

Then it will be burned.

**elixzer** · 05-09-2010, 05:36 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I think first I will perhaps draw a 7#9 chord with it. Then I will project it on the backdrop while my new band Unecessary Surgery plays.

Then it will be burned.

Is this your band?

**mr. beaumont** · 05-09-2010, 11:14 AM

Are you kidding me? Someone stole my ultimate metal band name!

**elixzer** · 05-09-2010, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Are you kidding me? Someone stole my ultimate metal band name!

LOL AND got on youtube first

**elixzer** · 05-10-2010, 04:49 AM

OK, I need to ask this question--- I admit to feeling blocks to starting to learn this circle of 5ths/4ths theory cuase it reminds me of school which I hated. Right or wrong the experience has created blocks to this kind of thing I have to be aware of. I need to understand therefore the REASON WHY this all needs to be memorized?
Can you give me any examples that will give me the urge to start memorizing this part of theory.

I had thought that once you know scale patterns thats all you need so for example playing A#major is just same pattern as playing Cmajor, etc etc. So why do I need to know one scale has 2,3,5, sharps or flats for, and all the rest?

I need examples for why this is vital to know. At the moment I admit I dont, and so am reluctant with this study. If you aint got no reason you aint got no impulse.

**mr. beaumont** · 05-10-2010, 08:04 AM

you need to know what scales have sharps or flats for building chords and harmonization.

Quick: what notes are in an Abmaj7 chord?

that's why you need to know. The only alternative to knowing how to build chords as you go is to memorize 100's of shapes.

**bako** · 05-10-2010, 08:16 AM

(Mr. B answered first and more concisely but I wrote this already)

Obviously it is not a matter of life and death. It will not prevent from making sound on the the guitar (even beautiful sounds).

To build chords or scales from a formula you need to know all the major scales because that is what the formulas are changing.

Eb7+ ----1 3 #5 b7
applied to Eb major scale
Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb
1-----Eb stays the same
3-----G stays the same
#5---Bb becomes B natural
b7---D becomes Db

Eb7+----- Eb G B Db

When you are reading there is a key signature. All accidentals are altering the starting key signature. If you don't know the keys then reading is impossible.

That's 2 reasons I think it's important.

**elixzer** · 05-10-2010, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by bako

(Mr. B answered first and more concisely but I wrote this already)

Obviously it is not a matter of life and death. It will not prevent from making sound on the the guitar (even beautiful sounds).

To build chords or scales from a formula you need to know all the major scales because that is what the formulas are changing.

Eb7+ ----1 3 #5 b7
applied to Eb major scale
Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb
1-----Eb stays the same
3-----G stays the same
#5---Bb becomes B natural
b7---D becomes Db

Eb7+----- Eb G B Db

When you are reading there is a key signature. All accidentals are altering the starting key signature. If you don't know the keys then reading is impossible.

That's 2 reasons I think it's important.

You show Eb7 which is Eb Dominant 7, right?
I thought the formula for the dominant 7 is 1,3,5,b7. So why then are you flattyening BOTH 5, and 7? Or maybe not 'flattening' 5, but changing it?

**FatJeff** · 05-10-2010, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by elixzer

You show Eb7 which is Eb Dominant 7, right?
I thought the formula for the dominant 7 is 1,3,5,b7. So why then are you flattyening BOTH 5, and 7? Or maybe not 'flattening' 5, but changing it?

I don't understand what you're asking. Eb7 = Eb G Bb Db. How is he flattening 5? The only "flatted" chord tone there, diatonic to the key of Eb, is the 7th.

**bako** · 05-10-2010, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by elixzer

You show Eb7 which is Eb Dominant 7, right?
I thought the formula for the dominant 7 is 1,3,5,b7. So why then are you flattyening BOTH 5, and 7? Or maybe not 'flattening' 5, but changing it?

I am showing Eb7 augmented for which the formula is as stated 1 3 #5 b7.
I am raising the Bb to B and lowering the D to Db.

**elixzer** · 05-10-2010, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by bako

I am showing Eb7 augmented for which the formula is as stated 1 3 #5 b7.
I am raising the Bb to B and lowering the D to Db.

OK, I didn't understand the "+" symbol, I thought it was short for 'dominant'--I associate that term with 'dominance' which had previously been bit of a block for me to sink in that a dom 7 means FLATTENED 7.

**Tony Santodonato** · 05-10-2010, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by elixzer

HI

I was encouraged to share this here. I am about to begin studying the 'circle' of fiths/forths as it is usually called.
However several weeks ago when I was checking out videos to do with music theory I cam across this guitar tutor who claims he never really 'got' the circle diagram, and devised his own diagram which he thinks is more understandable.

I am hoping those interested will checkout his diagram and explanation and let us know which do you prefer, his or the regular CIRCLE diagram, and please let us know why please

The video starts where he reads out a guitar students difficulty he has with the circle diagram, at 5:19 he begins explaining the circle diagram, and then at 7:57 he shows the diagram they use which he suggests is more understandable.

I am curious what you all think about this:

I like the traditional circle of fifths.When you go clockwise on the sharp side,the key signatures reveal themselves by being one half step away from the root.(F#-key of G)(F# C#-key of D)(F# C# G#-key of A)etc.On the flat side, the keys are revealed in the fourths.(key of F-Bb)(key of Bb-Bb Eb)(key of Ab-Bb Eb Ab)etc.Also someone new to jazz can instantly figure a IIm V7 I progression by targeting the key(root)they want, and move counterclockwise then turn the chords into the proper qualities. Instant II V I in any key.

**elixzer** · 05-10-2010, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

you need to know what scales have sharps or flats for building chords and harmonization.

Quick: what notes are in an Abmaj7 chord?

that's why you need to know. The only alternative to knowing how to build chords as you go is to memorize 100's of shapes.

Ab, C, Eb, G is that quick of what??